Announcement Block
As of 12/1/2021, a major update of the forum software was accomplished

Update: 3/7/2024: The Eagles email account at GoDaddy no longer works. I have set up a gmail account as a workaround: eaglesinternational.email at gmail.com

Registration is open to the public (*) and free from any cost or obligation. Please allow up to 36 hours for your application to be processed. If you have problems registering, please email me at: eaglesinternational.email at gmail.com
(*) spambots will be deleted -- only legitimate public applications will be processed.

Reminder: the "quick links" menu offers you the best navigation of this forum -- you need to be registered and logged in to see that menu.

I'm new around here and have some questions

This is a public forum for the discussion of all things Eagle. Whether it be an upcoming Eagles International event or the history of Silver Eagle. Trolling or spamming will not be tolerated.
User avatar
beltguy
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 2663
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2008 4:39 am
FMCA #: F246286
Bus Model: 1985 Eagle 10 with Series 60 and Eaton AutoShift 10 speed transmission (SOLD)
Location: Evergreen, CO
Contact:

Re: I'm new around here and have some questions

Post by beltguy »

Greg, at your budget (indeed most any budget), every bus will be a compromise and will need "fixing' to be the bus you want.


To my way of thinking there are five main areas of focus when you evaluate a motorhome/bus:
1) The structure. This is obvious. A bad choice here will cost you thousands of dollars and rust has ended several projects.
2) The running gear (engine and transmission). Again big potential dollars to repair or convert. Best to pay up front for what you want. Another major item of this category is tires -- at $500 per tire or so, it would add up quickly
3) What I will classify as systems. This would include inverters, generators, air conditioners, transfer switches kitchen equipment, water and house heaters, etc. This area is often overlooked. Each of these items has various levels of "quality" and adding/replacing can get expensive. For example the very best inverter (true sine wave) is a magical component but it costs perhaps $3K Cheap inverters may do some of the job but make living a bit more of a challenge
4)Interior. This is the most often "adjusted" component of a "finished" bus. The cost can be fairly reasonable if you do your own work and use materials that are not hugely expensive.
5) Exterior. Again, this can be a non-budget breaking update with good planning. Not everyone needs a $10-20K (or more paint job.

So, your have to balance out these areas against your skills/resources/budget.

Fun huh :o

Jim
Jim Shepherd
Evergreen, CO
'85 Eagle 10 with Series 60 & Eaton AutoShift 10 speed transmission SOLD
2005 Dodge 2500 with 5.9 Cummins and 6 speed manual 2022 Sunset 28 foot trailer
Bus Project pages: http://beltguy.com/Bus_Project/busproject.htm
Blog: https://beltguy.com/Travelogue/
Email: eaglesinternational.email at gmail.com   NOTE this email box is only for general correspondence related to the forum and not technical advice.  Technical questions will not receive a response.
User avatar
beltguy
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 2663
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2008 4:39 am
FMCA #: F246286
Bus Model: 1985 Eagle 10 with Series 60 and Eaton AutoShift 10 speed transmission (SOLD)
Location: Evergreen, CO
Contact:

Re: I'm new around here and have some questions

Post by beltguy »

One more thought. Walter mentions the less than desirable 8V71 and four speed transmission. Even that combination can be upgraded without an engine conversion.

One of the folks on the BCM board has his 8V71 turbocharged and loves it. The 8V71 is a very robust engine. With a turbo it really comes to life. It will still be slow going up the biggest hills, but probably acceptable to many folks. Some owners learn to live with the 4 speed (would be a heck of a stretch for me), while others have converted to something like a truck 10 speed and love it.

Jim
Jim Shepherd
Evergreen, CO
'85 Eagle 10 with Series 60 & Eaton AutoShift 10 speed transmission SOLD
2005 Dodge 2500 with 5.9 Cummins and 6 speed manual 2022 Sunset 28 foot trailer
Bus Project pages: http://beltguy.com/Bus_Project/busproject.htm
Blog: https://beltguy.com/Travelogue/
Email: eaglesinternational.email at gmail.com   NOTE this email box is only for general correspondence related to the forum and not technical advice.  Technical questions will not receive a response.
User avatar
DoubleEagle
Club Member
Club Member
Posts: 280
Joined: Wed Feb 14, 2018 9:26 pm
Bus Model: 1975 Model 05 Eagle
1982 Model 10 Eagle
1984 Model 10 Eagle
1994 Model 15-45 Eagle
Location: Dayton, Ohio

Re: I'm new around here and have some questions

Post by DoubleEagle »

Turbocharging the 8V71 is an option, but it is not a matter of simply bolting a turbocharger on, the compression ratio is different, etc. It will cost. The Spicer 4 speed has a high first gear ratio that will cause stalling and/or clutch wear on steeper grades, a five speed (or 6,7) will do better, but they are all bigger in size than a 4 speed, and the frame has to be changed to accommodate it. That will cost. Time is another factor, if you want to hit the road within a couple years, it would best to get the drive-train and basic interior layout that you want upfront. Some people have put 10 speed Roadrangers in, but most of the time their shift pattern is reversed because the bus layout vs truck layout. Jim's 10 speed Autoshift probably does not have that problem because the computer controls the shifting, and he could guide you best on how that installation went (he has one of the very few in an Eagle).
Walter
Dayton, Ohio
1975 Silvereagle Model 05, 8V71, 4 speed Spicer
1982 Eagle Model 10, 6V92, 5 speed Spicer
1984 Eagle Model 10, 6V92 w/Jacobs, Allison HT740
1994 Eagle Model 15-45, Series 60 w/Jacobs, Allison HT746
Greg in Colorado
Posts: 7
Joined: Thu Feb 20, 2020 8:21 am

Re: I'm new around here and have some questions

Post by Greg in Colorado »

Good food for thought here.

One thing I've learned buying and working on old cars and trucks is that spending an extra $1.00 at purchase time will often save me $2.00 to $3.00 during the restoration process. Looking at buses for sale I'm seeing a big jump in quality between the $40,000 buses and the $50,000 ones, so I'm raising my budget to $50,000. Its' more than I wanted to spend up front, but I'm saving money down the road. And as Walter said, it's a buyer's market.

I'm intrigued by the idea of turbocharging an 8v71. I'd heard that some people have tried it and gotten mixed results, so hearing that it can be done successfully is encouraging. Like anything it has to be done right. My son and I are finishing up a turbo project on a Dodge flathead right now and the change in performance is amazing. My guess is the 8v71 will probably need to be rebuild during the conversion, so there's another $10k+. Maybe I'll do this on my second bus. :D

Here's my thinking on a potential bus project:
- Priority is getting the best chassis and drivetrain possible. I can easily sink $1,000s into an engine and transmission if I'm not careful. I don't have time to deal with a lot of rust, so I absolutely want to avoid that. Tires are a consumable that are easily changed out, so I'm planning on that.
- Second is find a bus with good quality systems that have been installed well and are functioning. My guess is I will have to buy new batteries for an inverter system that has been sitting idle for 1-2 years. But again, batteries are not hard to change out, just $$$.
- The interior is the area I'm most familiar with, is easiest to physically handle, and is fairly simple to change out. As I said before, the headliner scares me, so I'll probably find someone that can do it, or at least can teach me how to do it. I'm sure it's not too hard.

The real issue is I don't want to spend 5 years grinding through a bus project while my kids grow up and move away. I've gotten sucked into big projects before and I don't want to do that at this time. A little extra money now will save me hundreds of hours of work.

And some questions on transmissions:
Is the Allison 741 a 5 speed with 0.74 overdrive?
Is it readily rebuildable?
Is the Spicer 5 speed a crash box?
Will a bigger transmission (Eaton 9 speed) fit between an 8v engine and drive axle?

Thanks again,
Greg
Eagle obsessed
Posts: 322
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2018 11:37 am
Bus Model: 1968 model 05 Eagle series 60 and B500
Location: McCook NE

Re: I'm new around here and have some questions

Post by Eagle obsessed »

Hi Greg

It appears you have done a very good job of researching eagle busses so far!

You have a very good list.

As Walter said, it takes different cylinder's for a turbo 8v71. I have read that at least an inframe rebuild is required.

You stated your priority is a good drive train. I would vote for either an 8v92 or a 4 stroke of some sort, paired to an automatic. That said, their are those who like their manual transmissions. :D


Now for your last questions:

1. An Allison HT 741 is almost the same as the HT740, with a few electronics so it is compatible with electronic engines. (Someone will correct me if I am wrong) it is a 4 speed transmission with a 1:1 top gear.

2. Yes, I believe it is a fairly common transmission, with available parts.

3. Yes, the 5 speed Spicer was a non Syncro option in the 05, not so familiar with other models but I think on the 10 also.

4. Yes. As Walter stated, it requires a little modification to the frame, but nothing terrible.
My bus came with an Eaton fuller 9 speed when we bought it. Since the engine is facing the other way in a bus, the shift pattern is reversed from a truck, but after the first 10 shifts your brain normally catches on! Lol :lol:


At this point I should mention that Bob Gilbert has a 9 or 10 speed road ranger, I think he is very happy with it.
It does require a shorter driveshaft.
(I think)

My project page:
http://www.eaglesinternational.net/test ... f=9&t=4786
Mason
1968 05 Series 60/B500 swap 2019-2021
1971 05 8v71 Spicer 4 speed parts bus
User avatar
DoubleEagle
Club Member
Club Member
Posts: 280
Joined: Wed Feb 14, 2018 9:26 pm
Bus Model: 1975 Model 05 Eagle
1982 Model 10 Eagle
1984 Model 10 Eagle
1994 Model 15-45 Eagle
Location: Dayton, Ohio

Re: I'm new around here and have some questions

Post by DoubleEagle »

Greg in Colorado wrote: I'm intrigued by the idea of turbocharging an 8v71. I'd heard that some people have tried it and gotten mixed results, so hearing that it can be done successfully is encouraging.

The real issue is I don't want to spend 5 years grinding through a bus project while my kids grow up and move away. I've gotten sucked into big projects before and I don't want to do that at this time. A little extra money now will save me hundreds of hours of work.

And some questions on transmissions:
Is the Allison 741 a 5 speed with 0.74 overdrive?
Is it readily rebuildable?
Is the Spicer 5 speed a crash box?
Will a bigger transmission (Eaton 9 speed) fit between an 8v engine and drive axle?
Forget the turbo idea, a turbo 8V71 is designed with a different setup. Changing it properly will be a complete rebuild. Get a good engine to start with, you don't have time to waste. If you get into engine overhauls and other serious modifications, your five years will be shot.
I can think of one person who bought an Eagle, discovered a lot of rust to fix, and then spent 17+ years fixing it. He has yet to hit the road.

Allison HT741: No, it is a four speed that has electronic controls, otherwise it is the same as the HT740, which has mechanical controls.

Yes, rebuildable for about $3000. You can't do it yourself.

Spicer 5 speed is the same style as the 4 speed, but it has one lower gear that comes in handy. The width of the trans is wider, so it will not bolt in to replace a 4 speed without frame modifications. Doing the headliner will be easier.

The truck transmissions will fit in, but requires a shortened driveshaft, and lots of linkage modifications, and you still have a reversed pattern. Doing the headliner will be easier.

It really looks like you tend to get sucked into big projects, take it from someone who started out with one bus and ended up with four: these crazy ideas that we get about modifying things look good in our minds, but when the physical reality of doing the work sets in, time becomes warped and spins out of control. Save yourself, focus on finding a really good Eagle that someone else spent a lot of time working on, for years. Concentrate on Eagles for sale by the actual owners, not some commercial outfit. Since you want more sleeping accommodations, former entertainer coaches are more likely to have bunks that were professionally done. A raised roof is more likely to have the room to fit in bunks that are three high. My Eagle 15 is 7' high inside, and was setup to sleep 24 originally. I reduced the number of bunks to sleep eight. Taking out a few is much easier than adding more. Many coaches are setup for two people, with maybe a fold-out couch, it's the entertainers that accommodate more. They quite often are shy a shower or full kitchen, but will have a refrigerator or ice box, and microwave. Take out a row of bunks and add a shower, take out another and increase the size of the kitchen, and don't sweat the headliner. :shock:
Walter
Dayton, Ohio
1975 Silvereagle Model 05, 8V71, 4 speed Spicer
1982 Eagle Model 10, 6V92, 5 speed Spicer
1984 Eagle Model 10, 6V92 w/Jacobs, Allison HT740
1994 Eagle Model 15-45, Series 60 w/Jacobs, Allison HT746
Eagle obsessed
Posts: 322
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2018 11:37 am
Bus Model: 1968 model 05 Eagle series 60 and B500
Location: McCook NE

Re: I'm new around here and have some questions

Post by Eagle obsessed »

Ditto on the entertainer
1968 05 Series 60/B500 swap 2019-2021
1971 05 8v71 Spicer 4 speed parts bus
Greg in Colorado
Posts: 7
Joined: Thu Feb 20, 2020 8:21 am

Re: I'm new around here and have some questions

Post by Greg in Colorado »

Ok, well I'm glad the headliner won't be that big a deal! :)

Walter, I get what you are saying. I've been looking at both entertainers and RVs, and I keep bumping up against this question:

Would I be better off (that is, time and money ahead) buying an entertainer that needs half of the interior remodeled and half of the basement systems installed, or an RV set up for 2 that has everything I want in the basement but need most of the interior redone?

I'm really torn here. There are pluses and minuses both ways. I think it really comes down to finding the right bus, either RV or entertainer. But I hear you loud and clear about finding the right engine and transmission already in the bus. I will make that a priority, along with the frame and suspension condition, and wrap the other stuff around that.

My goal is to find a good 8v92 or 4 stroke engine. If I find an 8v92, it sounds like the 740/741 transmissions will do fine. Is there another transmission option I should look for? If I find a 4 stroke, what transmissions should I look for with that?

Thanks again for all the feedback. I'm learning a lot here.
Greg
Eagle obsessed
Posts: 322
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2018 11:37 am
Bus Model: 1968 model 05 Eagle series 60 and B500
Location: McCook NE

Re: I'm new around here and have some questions

Post by Eagle obsessed »

Let me just answer your power train questions. I have spent too many hours researching powertrain.

For a newer electronic 4 stroke transmission many are happy with a B500 allison, also known as a world transmission, which is a 6 speed with double overdrive. However it does need rebuilt around 500-600 K, compared to a HT-740 which should easily run to a million miles. However with the 6 speed you have the advantages of double overdrive, fully electronic tranny, and softer shifts as it is designed specifically for the bus application.

This is what I have

But then again, Walter has an HT-741 on his series 60, maybe he will tell us what his engine speed at 65 is. ;)



Here is one of the threads I started when looking to change the power train in my bus. https://www.busconversionmagazine.com/f ... #msg387092

As already mentioned, If you have to mess with power train that is way more work then you want to under take.

MY 2¢

Mason
1968 05 Series 60/B500 swap 2019-2021
1971 05 8v71 Spicer 4 speed parts bus
User avatar
DoubleEagle
Club Member
Club Member
Posts: 280
Joined: Wed Feb 14, 2018 9:26 pm
Bus Model: 1975 Model 05 Eagle
1982 Model 10 Eagle
1984 Model 10 Eagle
1994 Model 15-45 Eagle
Location: Dayton, Ohio

Re: I'm new around here and have some questions

Post by DoubleEagle »

It's no contest. Since you want to be able to accommodate 6-8 total, a coach set up for 2 people with a pass-through bathroom and a large single bed in the rear will not work without major renovation. It will be more practical to get something with at least six bunks and a master bed because you will be able to use it right away. If there is no shower, you use the ones in campgrounds or truck stops (same applies to washers and dryers). If the kitchen is minimal, you eat in more restaurants.

In my Model 15 Entertainer there is an existing bathroom with a toilet and sink in a separate compartment, one ice box, a small refrigerator, a microwave, and a coffee maker. I am in the process of putting in a separate shower with a changing space, and adding kitchen counter and cabinet space. Everything is to the side of the center aisle, and if someone is in the bathroom, they are not blocking passage to the rear, and the same will apply to using the shower. Privacy is also protected in that kind of arrangement with different genders and ages involved. The very common setup of lounge in the front, then kitchen, then pass-through bathroom to the rear bedroom works for a couple, and is very nice for them, but does not work for 3-4 times the number of people.

The most important factor will be the actual cost of the coach you buy (not the asking price, especially now that the stock market is diving). Even the dealers might actual deal, nowadays. Goodson Bus Sales in Maiden, NC. has three Eagle Entertainers right now that are close to your range of price, if they would come off their high horse and get flexible. Check eBay, Craigslist, Bus Conversion Magazine, this site, etc. (except PopRV), there are probably only a dozen or less viable entertainers out there for sale now (not counting the dozens of super expensive Prevost entertainers). A good deal will not sit waiting for months to consider, the bad deals will linger for years.

8V92 vs Series 60, or CAT, or Cummins or your main choices, but above all, the condition of the engine is prime. You will have more luck getting service on the road for 4 cycle engines, but the 2 cycle sounds so cool (it's why I have both). Allison's are the best choices for automatics, the HT740/741 are rock solid dependable, but do not have overdrive gears. The newer Allisons with more gears let you operate at lower rpm's, but they do not last quite as long, on average (the B500 in particular). It will be much easier to sell an automatic coach than one with a manual. Again, condition is the main factor. Sticking with a stock setup from the factory also allows you to refer to the manuals from Eagle. Chances are a retrofitted coach with an engine or transmission that was never offered from the factory will not have a manual with it. Either you will have to figure out how to repair your coach on your own, or you will have to pay top dollar to a garage that might have to educate themselves while they work on it. It's prudent to be prepared and handy with tools for the common problems, and a ceiling is just a wall in a different position. :?
Walter
Dayton, Ohio
1975 Silvereagle Model 05, 8V71, 4 speed Spicer
1982 Eagle Model 10, 6V92, 5 speed Spicer
1984 Eagle Model 10, 6V92 w/Jacobs, Allison HT740
1994 Eagle Model 15-45, Series 60 w/Jacobs, Allison HT746
Post Reply