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I'm new around here and have some questions

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Greg in Colorado
Posts: 7
Joined: Thu Feb 20, 2020 8:21 am

I'm new around here and have some questions

Post by Greg in Colorado »

Hello All,

I've been casually looking at bus conversions for over 20 years now, mostly looking at MCIs and the like. I'd been scared off by people saying that the Eagles had major rust problems. But last year I started considering Eagles as a possible candidate, and now here I am.

My family is planning a big trip from Colorado to Alaska in the next year or two, plus a trip up to Manitoulin Island. For Alaska I think a 40ft chassis is the way to go, and I'd like to find a wide-body for my large family (7 of us, plus a potential girlfriend). This combination seems a little tough to find, but I've seen a couple of ads.

The big question I have is what engine I should look for? 25 years ago the 8V71s were everywhere and were not hard to find parts and service,but that seems not to be the case anymore. The next candidates are the 6V and 8V92s. We live in the flatlands of Colorado, but we will be going over the Rockies several times on our trip, as well as the mountains near the west coast and Canada. So the 6V92 seems a little under-powered for that. The Series 60 sounds like an awesome engine, but I have not found very many of them in the 40ft Eagles.

So I'd like to get your input on what engine is likely going to serve me best given the terrain I'm going to travel. Another options is to bump up to a 45ft Eagle, and I'd like to get input on how that might work for the trip to and around Alaska and Canada (Smithers, Dawson Creek and Calgary).

Thanks very much for any info and opinions you care to share. I'm really happy to be here.
Best,
Greg Coffin
User avatar
DoubleEagle
Club Member
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Posts: 280
Joined: Wed Feb 14, 2018 9:26 pm
Bus Model: 1975 Model 05 Eagle
1982 Model 10 Eagle
1984 Model 10 Eagle
1994 Model 15-45 Eagle
Location: Dayton, Ohio

Re: I'm new around here and have some questions

Post by DoubleEagle »

I'm glad to see that you did not make any rash decisions about which brand you wanted to investigate further, no sense in rushing! ;) Most makes of buses have problems with corrosion in once place or other, but the Eagles are the easiest to repair. I think your main decisions to make (regardless of brand), are which engine, which transmission, and body size.

Concerning the engine, I think the most practical engine nowadays, would be a Series 60. It will have more than enough power, has proven itself to be dependable, ranks as one of the all-time greats, is still easy to get parts and service for, and was often installed at the factory in Model 15 Eagles.

Transmission wise, the Allison Automatic HT740 or 741 are the most dependable ones you can get even though they are considered obsolete. The newer ones like the B500 or the various World models have more speeds, but they don't last quite as long. In general, the Allison's are the best automatics, avoid the ZF's. Manuals are an option, and would be 4, 5, or 7 speeds from the factory, and some people have installed Roadranger Autoshifts, but that is a custom installation that requires expertise (Jim will jump in here).

Size wise, Model 15's were available in 35, 40, and 45' in the 8 1/2 ft wide bodies. If you are going to far away places with back roads, it might be prudent to stick to 40' max because of the turn radius situation, and ground clearance going over humps and railroad tracks. There is also the consideration of total height because a Model 10 with basement air only, might be around 11' high, whereas a factory raised Model 15 might be closer to 13' with rooftop A/C's (you might snag a few branches).

The main thing is to check coaches out in person so you can see the differences for yourself, and you should check several brands so you will have no regrets. Looking at pictures is one thing, but crawling around the actual coach, and having expert help for the mechanicals is essential. So, good luck on your journey, it's a buyers market, take advantage of it, deal hard. :!:
Attachments
My Model 15-45
My Model 15-45
Walter
Dayton, Ohio
1975 Silvereagle Model 05, 8V71, 4 speed Spicer
1982 Eagle Model 10, 6V92, 5 speed Spicer
1984 Eagle Model 10, 6V92 w/Jacobs, Allison HT740
1994 Eagle Model 15-45, Series 60 w/Jacobs, Allison HT746
User avatar
beltguy
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Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2008 4:39 am
FMCA #: F246286
Bus Model: 1985 Eagle 10 with Series 60 and Eaton AutoShift 10 speed transmission (SOLD)
Location: Evergreen, CO
Contact:

Re: I'm new around here and have some questions

Post by beltguy »

Greg, welcome to the forum.

You are approaching this potential bus purchase correctly. Doing good research will give you a much better chance of getting the best possible value for your budget.

You have asked about engine options. Over the years, Eagle used many different engines, but the most popular were the 8V71 in the early models (up to somewhere in the Model 10 production). Then the popular engine for the Model 10 became the 6V92. The Model 15 used both 6V92 and 8V92 engines. Some of the very last production units used a few Series 60.

Some folks make the point that any of the engines will get you down the road and did for many years over all kinds of terrain. However, today's modern roads and traffic really make higher speeds on the hills very desirable. As a result, Eagle offered the 8V92 since it was capable of good speed on the hills. The 6V92 will get you up the steeper hills but it will be slow. The 8v71 was a non turbo engine and did not do well at altitude.

Many of the Eagles on the market have had engine conversions. Some 6V92s were converted to 8V92. That conversion gave good power but had potential heating problems. Lots of other Eagles had four stoke conversions. There have been all kinds of 4 stroke conversions with Cat, Cummins and Detroit engines. The most popular conversions seem to be the Detroit Series 60 and the Cummins M11/ISM engine. Both make excellent conversions.

As you look at potential Eagles, you should not overlook buses with four stroke conversions.

Probably the best advice I can give you is to let us know what your budget is. Most of us know of good value Eagles for sale and can point you to them.

Also, as you view potential candidates I would urge you to post them here and see if we can help you vet them.

Good luck

Jim
Jim Shepherd
Evergreen, CO
'85 Eagle 10 with Series 60 & Eaton AutoShift 10 speed transmission SOLD
2005 Dodge 2500 with 5.9 Cummins and 6 speed manual 2022 Sunset 28 foot trailer
Bus Project pages: http://beltguy.com/Bus_Project/busproject.htm
Blog: https://beltguy.com/Travelogue/
Email: eaglesinternational.email at gmail.com   NOTE this email box is only for general correspondence related to the forum and not technical advice.  Technical questions will not receive a response.
Greg in Colorado
Posts: 7
Joined: Thu Feb 20, 2020 8:21 am

Re: I'm new around here and have some questions

Post by Greg in Colorado »

Walter and Jim, thanks for your feedback. I appreciate your insights and experience. I've worked on cars and trucks for the last 40 years, but I don't have much experience with motor coaches or RVs. I'm a general contractor, so I understand 120v wiring, plumbing, kitchens, bathrooms, solar, HVAC, cabinets and finish carpentry. Jamming all that into a bus is new territory for me, but I'm looking forward to the experience. It feels a lot like fitting up a boat, and I like that.

At this point I'm really only looking at Eagles. Partly because I love the way they look, but mostly because of the ride quality. I have 2 family members that get terrible motion sickness, and I think the air suspension on the MCIs is going to be problematic for them on a 10,000 mile trip. Having said that, I am looking at the occasional MCI, but not seriously. I have to say I do prefer the T-drives on the MCIs....

Jim, I'd love to find a nice 4 stroke engine on a 40ft wide body, but I've only seen one in my price range and the bus wasn't a good fit for us. Right now I'm hoping to spend $40,000 for the right bus. I started my search by looking at motor coaches, but I soon realized that the time and expense of doing the conversion myself was not going to work for my schedule or my budget. So I switched to looking at converted buses hoping to find something that we could use sooner rather than later. Then we can take some shorter trips and figure out what we like and what we want to change.

My dream list for the bus is:
- Coach -
40ft wide body
Good frame and suspension
6'-4" ceiling height (or there abouts. I'm 6ft, my boys are 6'-2")
Series 60/Cummins/Cat engine, or recently rebuilt 8V92
Engine brake
Stick shift (a boy can dream, but I know automatics rule the road now)
Good insulation
10-15 kw diesel generator, preferably mounted in the engine bay
Webasto heat for engine and interior (I already have an older 47,000 btu heater)
2-3 AC units
Driver AC
200 gal fresh water
2500-3000 watt inverter. Solar?
6-8 operating windows
Class 3 or class 5 trailer hitch
Classic aluminum siding
Alcoa wheels are nice, painted steel is fine
Good paint, preferably light color, simple or no graphics
Air horns (Grover Stuttertones please)
Round headlights (I just like them)

- Interior -
Bunks to sleep 6
Lounge in back with 2 convertible couches
Kitchen with gas cooktop or range
Medium to large size fridge
Bathroom with shower
Two 4ft diner booths up front
Vinyl plank flooring
Good headliners
LED lighting
Good driver's area with factory or simple dash layout

I don't expect to get all this for $40,000, but I like to get most of the coach items for that, and have enough beds to sleep 8 right off the bat. I've seen a couple buses that had a lot of these items, but they were all 8ft wide with 6V92 or 8V71 engines.

I should also mention that we plan to do a lot boondocking. Trips in the north during the summer, and in the south during the winter. I don't plan to be in RV parks much, but it could certainly happen.

I really appreciate your offer to vet potential buses. I'll post a few here in the next day or so with my thoughts. And I agree that I need to look at prospects in person before I pull the trigger. My wife and I are planning to visit an RV dealer that has several Eagles and MCIs on the lot so we can get a better feel for what's out there. Just not sure when that will happen.

I know my bus is out there, I just have to find it.
Thanks again!
Greg
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beltguy
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Bus Model: 1985 Eagle 10 with Series 60 and Eaton AutoShift 10 speed transmission (SOLD)
Location: Evergreen, CO
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Re: I'm new around here and have some questions

Post by beltguy »

Greg, that is quite a check list, but it will really help you evaluate your options.

A few things jump out at me.

Wide body. That dictates a model 15 or a modified earlier model (lots of Eagles were widened and some lengthened).

High inside height. That dictates a modified (roof raise) Eagle. There were a few high roof Eagles from the factory, but I doubt there were many.

Class 3 or 5 trailer hitch. This is problematic. The rear frame structure of Eagles were not designed for large tongue loads. This can be complicated by compromised frame tubing from rust. In my project pages you will see the extent I went to to reinforce the engine cradle (where the trailer hitch structure is mounted). Even with all that reinforcing, I would not hall a trailer that had over 500 pounds of tongue weight. Equalizer hitches may help distribute the load a bit, but you are still relying on the frame structure.

Continuing on the trailer subject, the only bus that is rated for trailers is Prevost - and then it was an option. You could pull a large trailer if you used a TrailerToad (http://www.trailertoad.com/. That option takes the tongue weight off the bus. However, you still have the horizontal load. I suspect the stock Eagle frame structure (if in good condition) could pull a 10K trailer via a TrailerToad, but I would be a bit nervous - but that is just me :D

Jim
Jim Shepherd
Evergreen, CO
'85 Eagle 10 with Series 60 & Eaton AutoShift 10 speed transmission SOLD
2005 Dodge 2500 with 5.9 Cummins and 6 speed manual 2022 Sunset 28 foot trailer
Bus Project pages: http://beltguy.com/Bus_Project/busproject.htm
Blog: https://beltguy.com/Travelogue/
Email: eaglesinternational.email at gmail.com   NOTE this email box is only for general correspondence related to the forum and not technical advice.  Technical questions will not receive a response.
Greg in Colorado
Posts: 7
Joined: Thu Feb 20, 2020 8:21 am

Re: I'm new around here and have some questions

Post by Greg in Colorado »

Yes, I figured I'd throw everything into the wish list. You never know what will pop up.

To be honest, I'm not sure I need a wide body. It would be nice to have 48" wide booths on one wall, 24" cabinets on the other wall, and a 24" isle between. But maybe I'm overthinking it. How wide does a booth need to be to seat 2 people of average build side by side?

What is the standard ceiling height on a Model 10 or Model 15? I want to avoid an overly tall bus, especially with AC units on top.

The trailer hitch is pretty important, though Class 3 might be overkill. I'm hoping to carry an Enduro style motorcycle on a hitch mounted carrier if possible. Total weight would be around 500 lbs on the hitch. I figured I would add airbags to the rear axle to support the additional load.

Thanks,
Greg
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beltguy
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Location: Evergreen, CO
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Re: I'm new around here and have some questions

Post by beltguy »

If you open your search to the "standard" width (96 inches vs 102 inches) you really increase the number of buses available.

I think the ceiling height in a Model 10 is a bit over 6 feet.

The trailer or mounted rack problem is not so much the weight on the axle as the ability of the frame structure to handle the load. While 500 pounds may not seem like much, the problem is the inertia loads that bouncing down the road create. That could maybe double the load at times.

Jim
Jim Shepherd
Evergreen, CO
'85 Eagle 10 with Series 60 & Eaton AutoShift 10 speed transmission SOLD
2005 Dodge 2500 with 5.9 Cummins and 6 speed manual 2022 Sunset 28 foot trailer
Bus Project pages: http://beltguy.com/Bus_Project/busproject.htm
Blog: https://beltguy.com/Travelogue/
Email: eaglesinternational.email at gmail.com   NOTE this email box is only for general correspondence related to the forum and not technical advice.  Technical questions will not receive a response.
Greg in Colorado
Posts: 7
Joined: Thu Feb 20, 2020 8:21 am

Re: I'm new around here and have some questions

Post by Greg in Colorado »

So here are 3 buses that I like. They are all 40 ft and 8ft wide. They are very different from each other, and they all would need a fair bit of work to fit our needs.

First is a 1978 Model 05
You can look at it here https://giantclassiccars.com/eagle/3941 ... el-05.html
Image
I like this bus for the interior. Most of it was redone in 2013 so it's not all beat up. It has 4 bunks and a lounge in the back, so we could use it sooner rather than later. I'd need to install a kitchen to make it usable for long trips, and install booths as time goes on. I has 3 low profile ACs on a standard height roof. It has a trailer hitch and a large generator. It is used regularly and seems to be in good condition. The price is good enough I would have money left over for other issues.

On the other hand the infrastructure is poor. It has an old 8v71 engine which probably needs a rebuild (580k miles) or change out to something else. It has some rust at the back wheels, and I'm not sure how much elsewhere. I has tiny water tanks and needs a shower. The windows open at the transom but that's it.

I like this bus because we could use it right away for short trips. The interior looks like it's in good shape, and as long as we stay out of the mountains it should go down the road pretty well.

The second bus is a 1975 Model 05. You can see it here https://www.busconversionmagazine.com/1 ... -05-eagle/
Image
I like this bus for a lot of reasons, but not for the interior. I has a Cat engine that was rebuilt 80k miles ago. Large water tanks, an inverter and house batteries, extra insulation, a rear mounted generator, 6" roof raise with low profile ACs, and a trailer hitch. 6 sliding windows and light color paint. The driver's area looks well laid out.

The interior is not set up for 6-8 people. I'd have to redo just about everything. And I haven't heard back from the seller, so I don't know if it's still available. But I like this bus because the systems are set up very much like I want, and I would "just" need to redo the interior.

The third bus is a 1993 Eagle, Model 15? You can see it here https://giantclassiccars.com/eagle/5628 ... e-bus.html
Image
The bus has an 8v92 and 740 auto with 110k miles. It was converted in 1996. The roof is raised, but I don't know how much. Tires are 5 years old, and the shocks were replace just before it was parked (2 years ago). Overall it looks to be in good condition, but I don't know how much rust is lurking. It has 6 operating windows, a 4 cyl diesel generator, a Trace inverter with 4 batteries, 3 roof ACs, and a 50 amp service. It has a propane range and a large fridge. The front half of the bus would work for now, but there are no bunks.

The bus hasn't been driven in 2 years, and I'm concerned about condensation in the engine and drivetrain. It will probably need new house and coach batteries. The clear coat is peeling and the passenger windshield is cracked. The 100 gal water tank is a bit small, but it could work for now. I'd have to redo the bathroom and back bedroom to fit in new bunks.

I have to say that I'm reluctant to do a lot of interior work because I don't know anything about redoing the headliners. I'd like to learn how to do them, or find someone that can. Everything else I feel like I can take on.

I'd be grateful to hear any feedback you have on these buses. Or if you know of a bus that might work for us, I'd love to hear about it.

Thanks,
Greg
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beltguy
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Re: I'm new around here and have some questions

Post by beltguy »

Greg, you have posted three good candidates. I will take some more time to review them. Maybe someone know more details about one or more of them.

One caution, many ads you see will talk about low mileage/rebuilt engines. Unless they have documentation/receipts, you should consider that engine as just plain used.

I am always attracted to a 4 stroke conversion and the Cat 3406 engine is a great engine. That said it is coupled with a non-overdrive transmission. Four stroke engines want to operate at about 70% the speed of a two stroke for the same MPH. Eagle had two popular rear end ratios: 3.36 and 3.73. If it has the 3.73 ratio, much of the four stroke advantage is compromised.

Since you may be dealing with either doing an engine conversion or looking at a bus with an engine conversion, you might want to read my three part article on engine conversions in our "articles" section of the website: http://eaglesinternational.net/category/articles

If you choose to inspect one or more of these buses, let us know and maybe one of the members can join you.

Jim
Jim Shepherd
Evergreen, CO
'85 Eagle 10 with Series 60 & Eaton AutoShift 10 speed transmission SOLD
2005 Dodge 2500 with 5.9 Cummins and 6 speed manual 2022 Sunset 28 foot trailer
Bus Project pages: http://beltguy.com/Bus_Project/busproject.htm
Blog: https://beltguy.com/Travelogue/
Email: eaglesinternational.email at gmail.com   NOTE this email box is only for general correspondence related to the forum and not technical advice.  Technical questions will not receive a response.
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DoubleEagle
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Bus Model: 1975 Model 05 Eagle
1982 Model 10 Eagle
1984 Model 10 Eagle
1994 Model 15-45 Eagle
Location: Dayton, Ohio

Re: I'm new around here and have some questions

Post by DoubleEagle »

Greg, some quick comments about the three prospects:

1. This one will not suit you in the mountains, a 8V71 with a 4 speed Spicer (which is not synchromeshed) will not cut it. I realize you long for a stick shift, but have you used a 4 speed Spicer? The resale value of the manual will also be dismal the day you try to sell it.

2. The asking price is up there, but the CAT 3406 is an excellent motor on a par with the Series 60 (It would be better if it were cheaper to maintain). With the HT 740 and the stock axle, it would be revving higher, and burning more fuel, but it would be super in the mountains. The torque of the 3406 is great.

3. In several ways, this one is a fraud. It is not a Model 15, it is a Model 05 or maybe an early Model 10. The Model 15's are all the wider version with the front area being 8' wide, but the body at 102". The electrical panel door under the drivers side window is a one piece door hinged on the left. It might have been converted in 1993, but the frame was made in the seventies or early eighties. Even worse, this coach is one that I have followed for several years. The pictures you see were taken in Colorado (see the mountains in the background), and it was for sale on eBay at least two times that I am aware of. Both times it sold to buyers that then backed out of the sale, which can indicate that it was not as represented. It is now being listed as being in Harrisonburg VA., how it got there is anyone's guess, but all of those pictures are the exact same ones that were used for the eBay listing. They are not current pictures. If I remember correctly, it sold for something like $36,000 - $38,000, both times. The clear coat is peeling off the body, if you have not noticed, and the engine was never pictured or clearly stated. I suspect that it is a 6V92.

My advice is keep looking, and be very wary of anything being sold by a dealer. They do not know the coach personally like an owner would, and they want to make a profit off of you. In this group, No. 2 is the best bet at a good price, but keep looking. By the way, I do not advise trying to put a rack on the back for a motorbike, the weight would aggravate the strength of the rear, and how would you open the rear hatch without taking the bike off? Put it in a bay at an angle.
Walter
Dayton, Ohio
1975 Silvereagle Model 05, 8V71, 4 speed Spicer
1982 Eagle Model 10, 6V92, 5 speed Spicer
1984 Eagle Model 10, 6V92 w/Jacobs, Allison HT740
1994 Eagle Model 15-45, Series 60 w/Jacobs, Allison HT746
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