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Chassis battery and stalling issues

This is a public forum to discuss Eagle related technical issues. If you are having a problem with your Eagle, this is the place to find help.
bsimmons
Posts: 18
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 6:36 pm
Bus Model: 1972 Model 5 Silver Eagle

Chassis battery and stalling issues

Post by bsimmons »

Hey guys. I'm new to the whole eagle thing. My wife bought a previously converted Model 5 about 5 years ago and I flew out to Tulsa to pick her up and drive her back to PA. I had never driven a 4-speed manual bus (or any bus) at that point. Didn't know about double clutching or anything else I've learned since.

The clutch had to be rebuilt in Springfield, MO on the way back to PA. Since in PA we had the brakes done and a few other minor fixes/adjustments. I have little to nothing in the way of service history, can't find the vin, and only recently started living in it full-time with my family (wife, 2 teen boys, a 6-year-old, and 2 dogs). We simply dumped our house 3 months ago and jumped in the eagle.

It was a miracle that the A/C worked without a problem. I put a new element in the water heater and we have hot water for days. I replaced the old sparky fuse panel for the DC systems, hooked up a new deep cycle rv battery to the inverter, added water lines (both hot and cold) for a bosch washer/dryer set (that sits in the front luggage bay) and a 240v 30a circuit for the same. I've made minor repairs here and there. Fixed leaks. Replaced the floor in the toilet. I've done basically whatever needed to be done to make this a home.

She's old. THere's still a lot to do but she's livable. I have one constant problem, however, that never fails to scare the crap out of me: 1. Not enough battery power to start the engine. 2. Stalling out in 1st gear.

Now, we had the giant industrial bus batteries at one point but the bus sat in the shop for years, which made the batteries useless. They are like $300 a pop! My wife did some research and we have tried running 2 deep cycle batteries but that gives us like 2 cold starts at most. Then the batteries take forever to recharge. I have stories about stalls and frantic jumps for days. I didn't realize you could jump a bus with a Fiat! In a busy intersection at that! When there's enough charge in the primary and secondary batteries (it does seem to need to use both of them to crank over), she starts with no problem. But like I said, I only get 1 or two starts. Most of the time if I stall it, I won't get it to restart without a jump (first charge up the alternate battery and then charge and jump from the primary). What would you guys suggest I do here? We've heard people say that they just fill up their battery bay with as many batteries as it can hold and then just connect them all in parallel. WHat do you guys say?

The second, and probably bigger problem, is with 1st gear up hills. I've noticed 2 things with 1st gear in this beast:
1. If you rev too high before popping the clutch, it will slip right out of gear.
2. If you don't rev high enough before popping the clutch, it will stall.

Now, I know #2 is usually SOP for any manual vehicle but in my eagle window between 1 and 2 above is very very slim. She doesn't pop out of any other gear and I've learned to double clutch, blip the gas on downshift, etc... so I don't think it's my technique. The other problem, and the only terrifying thing about this machine really, is when I go up a hill that's too steep (so far I've encountered two such tiny hills of maybe 100 to 500 meters in RV parks we stay at) I lose power very very quickly and she simply cuts out at the end. Now, I encountered the same thing in reverse gear but reverse won't slip out no matter how high you rev the engine so i'm usually able to back up off a steep slope if I need to. What could be causing this issue? Both the stalling and the slipping? Shouldn't a DD 8v71N engine be able to pull a monster like this up literally any hill without stalling out for lack of power?

Here's a couple clues about maintenance that may help you understand the condition of my bus.
1. No idea when the oil was last changed. Not even sure how to go about getting this done since this bus is our only residence.
2. No idea when the fuel filters were last changed. Is this an easy procedure?
3. The engine has some kind of makeshift fuel pump on it whose job (as the consignment dealer we bought it from told me) is to fill the fuel filter before a cold start. It has a little red aligator clip wire that I connect to a hot bolt in the engine compartment until the fuel filter is filled. This makes little sense to me but maybe you guys understand it.

By trade I'm a software developer. I was a carpenter in college. I'm good with my hands and learn quickly. I'm not afraid of trial and error and I may be characterized as not quite right in the head. I love my eagle. It's like driving a building. I get such a rush every time I drive it. I just want to keep it and my family safe. Thanks in advance for any advice!
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beltguy
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Re: Chassis battery and stalling issues

Post by beltguy »

Bryan, welcome to our forum.

Let's address the battery issue first. Deep cycle batteries do not make good start batteries. Many of us use 3 each size 31 batteries. They are relatively cheap at most any truck dealer. Two smaller automotive type batteries are quite marginal when ti is cold. Also make sure to clean all the connections include the ground cable connection to the frame. It is possible that the starter is going bad. The starters are pretty sensitive to low voltage and that can kill them, so I would get the 31 batteries as soon as you can.

Now for the hill problem. Four speeds do not have a very "deep" gear for startability. Big trucks start up with a "dead throttle" procedure. That is, they start without giving it any throttle. That is the way I start with my 10 speed. However, those transmissions have a much deeper low gear. Starting with a high RPM will kill a clutch pretty quickly. There are lots of stories about folks having a hard time starting on a hill.

However, once moving, the bus should be able to pull most any reasonable hill. It sounds like you are down on power. Could be old "clogged" fuel filters or a dirty air filter. That said, both would likely result in power issues on the highway.

The best solution would be to convert to an automatic or a 9/10/13 speed truck transmission. Folks have done both.

Jim
Jim Shepherd
Evergreen, CO
'85 Eagle 10 with Series 60 & Eaton AutoShift 10 speed transmission SOLD
2005 Dodge 2500 with 5.9 Cummins and 6 speed manual 2022 Sunset 28 foot trailer
Bus Project pages: http://beltguy.com/Bus_Project/busproject.htm
Blog: https://beltguy.com/Travelogue/
Email: eaglesinternational.email at gmail.com   NOTE this email box is only for general correspondence related to the forum and not technical advice.  Technical questions will not receive a response.
Jim H
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Posts: 241
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FMCA #: F407926
Bus Model: 1966 Silver Eagle 01,8v92TA,HT740, Southwestern Coach Conversion
1989 Eagle Model 15
Location: Talladeda Township, AR

Re: Chassis battery and stalling issues

Post by Jim H »

Brian, Your bus is wired for two 8D batteries, put those in and you should be okay in the starting department...Jim is Right about low voltage damaging the starter, BTDT. If you have trouble with the starter after the installation of new batteries, install a M39 series starter.
Jim & Denise
"Casper" Eagle 01 1966
"Eagle 2" Model 15 1989
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DoubleEagle
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Bus Model: 1975 Model 05 Eagle
1982 Model 10 Eagle
1984 Model 10 Eagle
1994 Model 15-45 Eagle
Location: Dayton, Ohio

Re: Chassis battery and stalling issues

Post by DoubleEagle »

Bryan,
It looks like you have done fairly well considering your lack of experience with buses, but it also looks like you have been rough on your clutch. Phrases like "reving the engine" before "popping the clutch" have tripped you up, and shortened the life of your clutch. You should be gradually slipping your clutch as you gently increase the throttle in a coordinated smooth engagement. Since you have the Spicer 4 speed, you should not expect to be starting out on a steep hill with great success because 1st gear is not very low in ratio. It was meant for going from one level bus station to another. The five speed will do better, as well as 9, 10 speeds, and up. Changing to an automatic or different manual can be done alright, but it requires modifying the frame of the bus to fit it in. Unless you are mechanically handy with lots of tools, it will cost you thousands.

You need to change your oil pronto, and use low-ash 40 weight, preferably Mobil 1240. Your lower power could be from several things, but you need to change your fuel and air filters, again, pronto, to eliminate them as causes. A deep cycle battery is not appropriate for starting engines, just as Jim has already said. Two 8D batteries were the original set up, but on newer models you see one 8D, or two or three Group 31's. On my two 6V92's, one has a single 8D with 1100 CCA's, and another has two 950 CCA Group 31's. Both crank vigorously. (I just bought two 950 CCA 31's for a truck from Truck Pro for $90 each). The two 8D's were overkill to deal with starting and the big DC motors the handled the heat and and A/C on the seated coaches. They weigh 130-140 lbs. each, require water refills, and do not last very long. ($300 is too much, by the way, shop around). You either need to vastly increase your knowledge by getting manuals and researching the archives, or be prepared to shell out some serious money for mechanics that know buses, 2 cycle buses. Let everyone know where you are located so that if there are any fellow Eagle owners nearby, they can make their selves known to you to offer help. As far as road service goes, I recommend Coach-Net, you might need them.

Walter
Walter
Dayton, Ohio
1975 Silvereagle Model 05, 8V71, 4 speed Spicer
1982 Eagle Model 10, 6V92, 5 speed Spicer
1984 Eagle Model 10, 6V92 w/Jacobs, Allison HT740
1994 Eagle Model 15-45, Series 60 w/Jacobs, Allison HT746
bsimmons
Posts: 18
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 6:36 pm
Bus Model: 1972 Model 5 Silver Eagle

Re: Chassis battery and stalling issues

Post by bsimmons »

I misspoke when I said deep cycle batteries. I currently have 2 31Ds. I suspect we will need Coach-Net as I’m hard on this poor bus.

Where can I get information on changing fuel filters, air filters, and oil changes on a Model 5?

We are currently docked at 1,000 Trails Hershey Park. We have a 1,000 Trails membership and intend to simply bounce from one site to the next.
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DoubleEagle
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Joined: Wed Feb 14, 2018 9:26 pm
Bus Model: 1975 Model 05 Eagle
1982 Model 10 Eagle
1984 Model 10 Eagle
1994 Model 15-45 Eagle
Location: Dayton, Ohio

Re: Chassis battery and stalling issues

Post by DoubleEagle »

Bryan,

Check your batteries to see how old they are, and what their CCA ratings are. They might be over three years old and only have 650 CCA's. If that is the case, you need stronger and newer batteries. Do they have 3/8" studs, or traditional lead posts? Your starter might be suspect if your batteries are okay, and your alternator might not be charging correctly. The voltage regulators on the original setup can also fail. How many drive belts are driving the alternator? You might have the original monster alternator that costs big bucks, or something smaller and newer.

There are Eagle manuals for sale on eBay occasionally, and there are CD's of manuals available online. It is best to have original manuals if at all possible, copies do not always show good enough detail. Check the archives of this board, and Bus Nuts Online, and Bus Conversion Magazine. There are thousands of posts on all of the boards for decades.

Chances are you have two fuel filters (spin-on canisters), and a round air cleaner element. Changing the fuel filters can cause you to loose "prime" if it is not done correctly. Fill the filter to the top with fuel before you put it on, and only change one filter at a time, and run the engine in between the changes. I suspect working on your coach at the campground might be frowned upon, you need to find an independent garage with people that know 2 cycles, preferably with a crusty old guy there. There is a Transportation Museum in Hershey that has restored old buses on display. Someone there knows who worked on them locally (hopefully).

Walter
Walter
Dayton, Ohio
1975 Silvereagle Model 05, 8V71, 4 speed Spicer
1982 Eagle Model 10, 6V92, 5 speed Spicer
1984 Eagle Model 10, 6V92 w/Jacobs, Allison HT740
1994 Eagle Model 15-45, Series 60 w/Jacobs, Allison HT746
bsimmons
Posts: 18
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 6:36 pm
Bus Model: 1972 Model 5 Silver Eagle

Re: Chassis battery and stalling issues

Post by bsimmons »

We have an old Dutch mechanic in Quakertown PA who loves eagles and knows them like the back of his hand. I’ll contact him about the fuel filter, air filter, and oil change.

Yeah, camp grounds tend to frown upon me whipping out my power tools.

The 31D batteries we have are less than 2 months old. I would figure they should charge up for another start after a 26 mile haul, wouldn’t they? Or are they too small alone to expect such a thing? They have 950 CCA, so no issues there.

The wiring for the batteries are set up for 8Ds, as the gentleman before suggested. But can’t I simply attach the leads for those on the end of a set of 31Ds in parallel for more reserve? One of the batteries in there now has big led studs, the other has small posts but I screwed on some adapters so the leads would fit.
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beltguy
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Location: Evergreen, CO
Contact:

Re: Chassis battery and stalling issues

Post by beltguy »

It sounds like you are thinking about mixing the 8Ds with the 31s. That is not a good idea. The optimum is to mate "sister" batteries (all same size and code date). If you mix old and new the old could have an issue that will drag down the the new batteries.

It is time to get the old digital volt meter out and do some checking. The first check I would make is to have someone start the bus with the voltmeter across the batteries. They should not drop much voltage in the first 10-20 seconds. You will also want to make sure that you are getting full voltage to the starter (if possible when it is trying to start the engine).

Jim
Jim Shepherd
Evergreen, CO
'85 Eagle 10 with Series 60 & Eaton AutoShift 10 speed transmission SOLD
2005 Dodge 2500 with 5.9 Cummins and 6 speed manual 2022 Sunset 28 foot trailer
Bus Project pages: http://beltguy.com/Bus_Project/busproject.htm
Blog: https://beltguy.com/Travelogue/
Email: eaglesinternational.email at gmail.com   NOTE this email box is only for general correspondence related to the forum and not technical advice.  Technical questions will not receive a response.
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DoubleEagle
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Joined: Wed Feb 14, 2018 9:26 pm
Bus Model: 1975 Model 05 Eagle
1982 Model 10 Eagle
1984 Model 10 Eagle
1994 Model 15-45 Eagle
Location: Dayton, Ohio

Re: Chassis battery and stalling issues

Post by DoubleEagle »

bsimmons wrote:We have an old Dutch mechanic in Quakertown PA who loves eagles and knows them like the back of his hand. I’ll contact him about the fuel filter, air filter, and oil change.

Yeah, camp grounds tend to frown upon me whipping out my power tools.

The 31D batteries we have are less than 2 months old. I would figure they should charge up for another start after a 26 mile haul, wouldn’t they? Or are they too small alone to expect such a thing? They have 950 CCA, so no issues there.

The wiring for the batteries are set up for 8Ds, as the gentleman before suggested. But can’t I simply attach the leads for those on the end of a set of 31Ds in parallel for more reserve? One of the batteries in there now has big led studs, the other has small posts but I screwed on some adapters so the leads would fit.
Bryan,
The batteries should be equal, and if they are both okay, have 950 CCA's, that should be enough. The original connections are for lead posts, and having post adapters on both of the 31's 3/8" stainless steel studs should work. However, a bad connection, a bad ground, can cut your available amperage way down. The starter can be damaged by too little amperage, so you must make sure all of the connections are clean. On the Model 05 there are cables all over the back because of the two batteries located on each side, and the fact that the cables lead to shut-off switches in the right rear of the coach. I hope you are aware of these and use them to shut the starting batteries off. They have short chrome switches, and are located on the right looking into the engine bay, one high, one low. Of course, the previous owners could have changed things. The starting batteries should be isolated from the house batteries so that they are not drawn down while parked. Since you have new batteries, if the cables are okay, and the connections are good, and the batteries are receiving a charge as you go down the road, there is no reason that they should not crank the engine well. Check every cable and connection closely, just one bad spot where the insulation was chipped of and salt water got in can corrode the wire bad enough to seriously weaken the flow of current. Ground connections to the frame are another trouble spot because of dissimilar metals. When cranking, the voltage should not drop more than 1/2 volt (out of 12V), if everything is okay.

If you have a old Dutch mechanic to go to , by all means, go, and take notes. You have an awful lot of knowledge to catch up to. You still have not revealed how many drive belts are on your alternator. It's located on the left rear corner, down low. Got's to know. ;)
Walter
Dayton, Ohio
1975 Silvereagle Model 05, 8V71, 4 speed Spicer
1982 Eagle Model 10, 6V92, 5 speed Spicer
1984 Eagle Model 10, 6V92 w/Jacobs, Allison HT740
1994 Eagle Model 15-45, Series 60 w/Jacobs, Allison HT746
bsimmons
Posts: 18
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 6:36 pm
Bus Model: 1972 Model 5 Silver Eagle

Re: Chassis battery and stalling issues

Post by bsimmons »

I believe this is my alternator.
Alternator?
Alternator?
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