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Protection and Firearms

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Re: Protection and Firearms
Tue Mar 09, 2010 2:04 pm


I am going to jump in on this even though my information will directly conradict others views. If found contradictory just know I am not attempting to pee farther than onyone just giving my opinion.

I am not in anyway a fan of 9mm as a self defense weapon. Will they kill a human intent on harming you? Yes. So will a pellet gun if you shoot it right.

I am a big fan of a .40 caliber with what I call flying ashtray rounds. Lots of ft. pounds plenty of speed and if you get the right bullet it will expand to create a devistating wound channel. I am a bigger fan of a .45 when it is equipped with the right bullet.

To save a long story I have been to the cave and seen the critter that lives in the cave. A 9mm in almost every incident was simply not enough. A .45 is just a nasty round. Shoot someone with a 45 and it is like a brick.

Tips to live by. If you have multiple weapons to protect your family. They should all be the same. Same rounds interchangable magazines. We at the station are no longer aloud to carry anything other than a Glock .40 and Golden Saber ammunition. If I have a malfunction I can pick up a downed officer's weapon and it is the same as the one I had. The muscle memory is there. The weapon is exactly the same. His mags will fit my weapon and vice versa. No thinking involved just pick it up and get in the fight.

If your in a situation where two of you are on the bus and you have two differnet weapons there is no switching. I would prefer our patrol rifles be the same as our side arms. Same mags ammo everything. When the crapper bucket get spilled there is no time for figuring out how to operate a weapon. Muscle memory can go south when involving more than one weapon.

So far as shotguns. No shotgun is more powerful than the other. When a pellet leaves the barrel it is the same as any other pellet. It is the weight of the pellet and speed. All shotguns be them a 410 or a 10 guage have a variation on speeds when you buy the loads for them. The only difference in them is their shot capacity. There is no difference in pellet penetration twix any guage. In other words a #4 pellet from a 10 guage at 1200 FPS is no differnet than a #4 pellet at 1200 FPS from a 410. When they leave that barrel they are the same.

I like the idea of the 4 button lock box.

I am a fan of training. Training does not consist of punching paper. Training is getting physical and then firing rounds. Getting the heartrate to a certain level and then forcing your body to perform. Shoot from the ground shoot from behind objects. Here is an example: If you train standing in front of a target for the next 5 years. If a dangerous encounter happens you could very easily stand right in front of that dangerous encounter and shoot exactly like you were at the paper. Muscle memory can help you or get you killed. So if you train to see a danger, fire at the danger as you are getting to cover and then keep firing at the danger until it is no longer a danger then your training. Punching holes in paper is not training. You must force yourself to do mag changes as fast as you can. When you drop that empty mag let it hit the ground, sling it if you have to but get it out and make the change. Damage it if you have to but get it out of there and move on. They are cheap if you think about the consequenses. Officer have been killed doing in a fire fight as they did at the range. One officer reloaded to save on costs. As he would empty his revolver during training he lined the empty shell casings up all neat and orderly. When they found him dead behind a car after the fight, his empties were lined up next to his body. Muscle memory!!!!

If you intend to use a weapon then get to a training facility and research your trainer. If he is not a combat trainer then find one. If your getting serious enough to own and use a weapon in a fire fight then get educated as to what a real fire fight is like. It is not what you think. When the guns go off at the range it is nothing. When they are pointed the other way and your in a fight before you even know you can hardly fubntion. You vision is limited to a pin hole and you can hardly move or so it seams.

To sum it up. Big gun with a bullet designed for a specific purpose. Training!!! Pretty simple.
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Re: Protection and Firearms
Tue Mar 09, 2010 8:59 pm


Wayne, I have a 45 Double Eagle I keep in the house for protection along with a S&W model 57 41 Magnum reading your post I maybe a little lite with S&W 9mm in the bus what do think do I need another 45 or I have a 10 mm S&W auto my grandson gave to me but it is hard to find shells for and I don't have the dies to reload it with.

good luck
Clifford
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Re: Protection and Firearms
Tue Mar 09, 2010 10:00 pm


luvrbus wrote:Wayne, I have a 45 Double Eagle I keep in the house for protection along with a S&W model 57 41 Magnum reading your post I maybe a little lite with S&W 9mm in the bus what do think do I need another 45 or I have a 10 mm S&W auto my grandson gave to me but it is hard to find shells for and I don't have the dies to reload it with.

good luck
Clifford


The 45 Double Easgle model is not highly regarded in the shooting community. I don't know why, because I have never owned one, but I suspect it is because of the trigger type.

The 10mm is a VERY effective manstopper, but high recoil. The FBI originally demanded it (that's why it exists), but then found that while its larger and more experienced officers could shoot it very effectively, its smaller stature offciers had trouble grasping the BIG stock (because the cartridge is so LONG), and were intimidated by the recoil and so shot it badly. So, the FBI had Smith & Wesson and the ammo suppliers cut the case length down to reduce the powder, and to enable the construction of a smaller firearm to hold the cartiridges, and voila, the .40 Smith & Wesson cartridge was created!

If you can handle the size of the firearm, and the recoil, it is a FINE manstopper. If it's too big or too much, go with a 40 S&W chambered firearm (MANY choices - I recommend Heckler & Koch "USP" model in fullsize or compact).

Regardless of a previous poster's comments, I would NOT recommend a 45acp over a .40S&W. The .40 has a much better record in street police shootings than the 45acp. A 9mm gun is a good choice but ONLY with the fastest bullets: 115 grain jacketed hollow point at at LEAST 1300 fps. The 41 Magnum is even better than the 357 Magnum, but the gun is awfully heavy!
'
No one hit solidly in the torso by either a 357 Mag or 41 Mag is going to be able to continue their attack on you. The massive dump of energy and the deep and destructive wound channel basically stupifies the attacker's brain into shutting down. The 10mm cartridge is as close as you are going to get to a 357 if you want an auto pistol that you can still carry.

Jim G
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Re: Protection and Firearms
Tue Mar 09, 2010 10:57 pm


Shooting targets I use a 38 super built on a 1911 45 frame nice gun was built for me by a gunsmith in Austin Tx my wife loves to shoot it she likes the red dot lol

good luck
Clifford
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Re: Protection and Firearms
Wed Mar 10, 2010 7:17 am


Luvrbus I would suggest another .45 The .40 is a great weapon but since you have a .45 I would stick with it. It hits like a hammer and does not have a big problem with over penetration. By that I mean it is not a guarantee it will not go through and hit whoever is on the other side. It will go all the way through with ease. It is just not a round that will go through human then wall after wall.

All weapons have their place. I love them all. But I especially love a 9mm when it is tied to a trot line as an anchor. :lol: I say a 9mm is good for a low recoil weapon but for combat it is not.

I like talking about weapons but I don't like to talk too much about work. Work is work and I would rather be on the road in the Eagle (6 more years). But since it is the topic at hand I will for a bit.

As most of yall know or have guessed I am a cop. I have been for over 20 years. I hit a beat for as long as I could stand it on night shift. That is a whole other story but to sum it up, there aint nothing but newspaper throwers, cops and criminals out late at night.

I moved into a different position here at the station. I am a Crime Scene Investigator. It is part of my job to document by industry standards all crime scenes. Part of that is recreating crime scenes and more often than not it intails gunfire. I am trained in advanced shooting reconstruction. Everyone in my field will tll you the same as I. 9mm will kill you but is subpar.

So how do you document gunfire. Well we use lasers or (old school is what I like) colored string. That way you can take a photograph of bullet paths ect.

I am also responsible for collecting as much evidence as possible and that includes bullets and bullet fragments. The collection comes from wherever the bullet may be whether in a body or in a wall. When they are in the body I collect it at autopsy from the Medical examiner.

The reasons why I would not want to caryy a 9mm. The only cases I have ever seen a dead person as a result of a 9mm is when the assailant stood over his victim and executed him. All other cases was a pinhole and usually the guy standing there holding his wound with one or both hands talking in a high pitch voice. A 9mm will kill a human no doubt. You got to hit them right and hit them often.

A beat officer got a call and dispatch mess it up. She got scared and said I have a shots call for you (to the beat officer in the next district). She froze and could not get anything else out. I picked up on it and was close. I knew when swhe didn't answer anymore something was going on. Well I was the first one there. As I was sneeking up to the house the front door opened and a woman was frantic on the telephone standing next to a male and they were standing over a male sprawled out on the foyer.

I got the two at unpoint until others arrived. The male had been shot once in the head and once right square in the heart/area. He was motionless and gray. I knew dern good and well he was dead. Paramedics got htere and found a pulse. Flew him to Hermann where he left out of Hermann 2 days later. He was fine.

Come to find out the bullet would in the head never penetrated the skull, it knocked him out. The one in the chest went right by his heart. Moral of the story is don't shoot a 9mm. You got it a 9mm. There are a lot of dynamics in a bullet path. So nobody can sit here and say if it was this round or that round he would not have made it. I can say this though, I have never seen anything like that with a .45 or a .40

.45 and .40 is way different. They punch and they punch hard. If a bones is hit, it is a gonner. If a vital is hit then there is no more story there.


The only time I would accept the .38-.357-.380-9mm is in a hyper rounds. Like the .357 in the shouldered round. It is super fast and can do some damage. The shoulder creates a lot more CUP copper units of pressure and bumps that round up to do a good job. However it is still not my choice.

The only thing I can compare it to is taking a Honda and trying to make it a muscle car. Yep you can get them to really haul some butt. It will take you from A to B. Pull it up next to a any American made muscle car and then you see the difference. Hondas are not muscle cars and a .38 caliber weapons just are not fit for combat.
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Re: Protection and Firearms
Wed Mar 10, 2010 8:06 am


I know now who I want to protect my backside! I'm sure glad we're buddies! 8-)

It's great to have this kind of knowledge, I still haven't bought a fire arm yet. Becky is scared to death of one in the bus. I told her it would be a lot worse not having one. So far we're gun less. I really haven't shot one since I was in the Army, had my fill then. But I don't want to be on the wrong end of one if we are in the middle of nowhere. I hate violence, but I hate what happened to Clifford and Sonja too. So glad it worked out in their favour.
Becky & Paul Lawry
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Re: Protection and Firearms
Wed Mar 10, 2010 8:50 am


Yes Sir I am apposed to violence myself. I have found a good way to introduce guns to people who have a fear of them. someitmes the fear is instilled by family media or whereever and it is real. So to slowly change the negative cloud of a pistol. I hand someone a hammer and ask them to just hang on to it for a minute. After a little bit of time I ask if they are afraid of it. The usual answer is "Well Duh, no". Set the hammer down on the table next to an obviously unloaded weapon. Ask them to tell you any one piece the weapon is made out of that the hammer isn't. Metal and wood is all it is. It is what is behind the weapon that is dangerous. A hammer is just as deadly as a weapon. The only difference is the weapon can do the job from a longer distance. Sometimes it works and sometimes it does not.

If you do decide to obtain a weapon and you want to slowly introduce your wife I would also suggest this. Buy and or borrow a .22 rifle. Take her to where you can shoot and load one shell. Put ear protection on her to further reduce the noise level. Shoot is at reactionary targets such as cans, plinkers ect. Slowly get her to shoot and when they see they are hitting the little targets they begin to have a good time. Slowly you will be able to overcome the "Oh my GOd it is a gun" thing.

My wife wsa the same way. She now shoots a frequently. She shoots a 12 gauge 3 inch mags at ducks and geese. I did drop her down to a 410 for doves because of the recoil factor was beating her up a bit. But from no shooting to shooting a 12 3 inch mag. I would say she got over the gun thingy. It was inevitable though. to live in my house you should know how to use a weapon if by attrition alone.
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Re: Protection and Firearms
Thu Mar 11, 2010 9:04 am


OK folks, after the terrible situation with Clifford and Sonja, I have ramped up my desire to have better protection. I have a pump action shot gun in the bus, but it would be hard to get to quickly.

I want to progress to a concealed weapon permit, but the first step is to get the proper firearm. I have a very knowledgeable friend who strongly recommends a Ruger LCP (.380) or the Kel-Tek P-3AT. I went to look at one at a gun shop. The fellow waiting on me expressed some concern about the slide jamming and recommended that I think about a revolver ("fool proof").

The LCP or P-3AT would really be a nice "pocket" weapon, but I would like opinions on these pistols or alternatives for the concealed approach.

Jim
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Re: Protection and Firearms
Thu Mar 11, 2010 9:24 am


rv_safetyman wrote:OK folks, after the terrible situation with Clifford and Sonja, I have ramped up my desire to have better protection. I have a pump action shot gun in the bus, but it would be hard to get to quickly.

I want to progress to a concealed weapon permit, but the first step is to get the proper firearm. I have a very knowledgeable friend who strongly recommends a Ruger LCP (.380) or the Kel-Tek P-3AT. I went to look at one at a gun shop. The fellow waiting on me expressed some concern about the slide jamming and recommended that I think about a revolver ("fool proof").

The LCP or P-3AT would really be a nice "pocket" weapon, but I would like opinions on these pistols or alternatives for the concealed approach.

Jim


Jim: I know that handgun calibers are perplexing for a non-pro shooter to understand, but a .380 caliber cartidege is far WEAKER than than a 9mm (which is nominally a .355 caliber)!

A .380 is viewd by almost all knowledgeable shooters are grossly insufficient to stop anyone but a rather weak attacker. Its only merit is that it enables a very SMALL firearm, as the cartidge is weak enough to not require much gun around it!

The store clerk is also correct that a revolver is a much better idea for someone sho does not shoot regularly, as it requires very little knowledge and practice to shoot well. Just aim and squeeze the trigger. It can also be left loaded for long periods of time without degrading internal springs.

Get yourself a Smith and Wesson .357 Magnum revolver. Such a revolver can shoot EITHER .357 Magnum (if you can handle the recoil and can practice with it), OR .38 Special (which is weaker in stopping power than the 357 but almost as strong as a 9mm, and FAR better than the 380) while offering much lower recoil.

In fact, unlike semiauto pistols, revolvers can handle wildly different power levels of cartridges without malfunctioning, so you could use a more lightly loaded .357 Magnum that will still be FAR stronger than a 9mm and at least equal to a 40 S&W caliber cartridge discussed earlier in this thread.

Jim G
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Re: Protection and Firearms
Thu Mar 11, 2010 9:30 am


Jim G, thanks for the great reply.

One issue I am struggling with is "penetration". I don't want to fire a round and have it get into someone else's bus or RV.

I am also trying to balance ability to carry easily (probably not all that often) as opposed to having the correct pistol.

I will do some looking at your recommendations.

Jim
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